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	<title>Comments for Cauldron</title>
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	<link>http://selinarifkin.wordpress.com</link>
	<description>Politics with a dash of Paganism</description>
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		<title>Comment on Pagan Zealots by syrbal</title>
		<link>http://selinarifkin.wordpress.com/2012/06/06/pagan-zealots/#comment-131</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[syrbal]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Sep 2012 19:34:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selinarifkin.wordpress.com/?p=211#comment-131</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thank you for a view that expresses a great deal of my ambivalence about pagan life.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for a view that expresses a great deal of my ambivalence about pagan life.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Pagan Zealots by selinarif</title>
		<link>http://selinarifkin.wordpress.com/2012/06/06/pagan-zealots/#comment-88</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[selinarif]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Jun 2012 15:32:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selinarifkin.wordpress.com/?p=211#comment-88</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Nuanced analysis doesn&#039;t necessarily imply that we should accept every viewpoint as a guide to the best course of action. That means that nothing gets done at all.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nuanced analysis doesn&#8217;t necessarily imply that we should accept every viewpoint as a guide to the best course of action. That means that nothing gets done at all.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Pagan Zealots by Sarah T</title>
		<link>http://selinarifkin.wordpress.com/2012/06/06/pagan-zealots/#comment-87</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Sarah T]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Jun 2012 13:51:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selinarifkin.wordpress.com/?p=211#comment-87</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I guess the argument I see on the other side is this: when we get too caught up in nuance and wanting to respect people&#039;s individual experiences, I think we risk accepting things that aren&#039;t okay.  All Pagans do not have to share values any more than all Christians or Jews do, but -- as you know! -- I&#039;m interested in what convictions our practice leads us to.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I guess the argument I see on the other side is this: when we get too caught up in nuance and wanting to respect people&#8217;s individual experiences, I think we risk accepting things that aren&#8217;t okay.  All Pagans do not have to share values any more than all Christians or Jews do, but &#8212; as you know! &#8212; I&#8217;m interested in what convictions our practice leads us to.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Pagan Kosher by Ethical Eating? &#124; The Pagan Values Blogject</title>
		<link>http://selinarifkin.wordpress.com/2011/08/26/pagan-kosher/#comment-86</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ethical Eating? &#124; The Pagan Values Blogject]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2012 01:20:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selinarifkin.wordpress.com/?p=95#comment-86</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] was from Selina over at Cauldron to Kitchen, who shared the first of her series of posts &#8220;Pagan Kosher&#8221; from August of last year on our 2012 event FB page.  I was intrigued because last year [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] was from Selina over at Cauldron to Kitchen, who shared the first of her series of posts &#8220;Pagan Kosher&#8221; from August of last year on our 2012 event FB page.  I was intrigued because last year [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on About by Ethical Eating? &#124; The Pagan Values Blogject</title>
		<link>http://selinarifkin.wordpress.com/about/#comment-85</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ethical Eating? &#124; The Pagan Values Blogject]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2012 01:20:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selinarifkin.wordpress.com/?page_id=2#comment-85</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] one of the early contributions to the 2012 Pagan Values Event was from Selina over at Cauldron to Kitchen, who shared the first of her series of posts &#8220;Pagan Kosher&#8221; from August of last year on [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] one of the early contributions to the 2012 Pagan Values Event was from Selina over at Cauldron to Kitchen, who shared the first of her series of posts &#8220;Pagan Kosher&#8221; from August of last year on [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on Eating Ethics by selinarif</title>
		<link>http://selinarifkin.wordpress.com/2012/05/03/eating-ethics/#comment-83</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[selinarif]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 May 2012 12:55:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selinarifkin.wordpress.com/?p=208#comment-83</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I have to start by saying that one of the rules for the particular contest was that we were not allowed to use arguments around consuming pastured rather than factory farmed meat. This made for an interesting intellectual exercise, but in my opinion, left out the best argument. Eating pastured meat (which I do) negates Middleton’s argument about number of deaths because only one cow is killed. But his argument has other problems. He is assuming that only calorie count matters to human health. If that were true, we could all live on sugar. 

My other issue with the contest was that to say that an ethical argument is needed for eating meat assumes that we have a choice about eating animal products. While human bodies are all different, there are some realities that we do not escape, in this context, the reality is that there are nutrients that our bodies do not manufacture that we cannot get from plants. While some humans can survive for longer without animal products, eventually there are going to be problems. 

I agree completely that we should minimize harm. This is why I advocate for pastured meat, which when properly done has the benefit of sequestering carbon, reducing flooding, and building healthy soils. This allows livestock to live and breed the way they evolved, and places us (humans) firmly within the cycle of Nature. Let me be clear, I am against factory farming, both for its cruelty to animals, and because it causes damage to human health. 

How do you feel about other animals terminating animal’s lives prematurely? As a fact of nature, it is far from gentle or compassionate. Nothing &lt;I&gt;wants&lt;/I&gt; to die. A species that lacks a strong survival drive would, by definition, fail to have a continued presence on the planet. It would get eaten. The “desire to live” is not in itself a good argument.

No, I would not defend cannibalism as being part of nature’s cycle. Generally, species that eat their own would run into the same problem as one that lacked a survival drive. But cannibalism is relatively rare. In his book &lt;a HREF=&quot;//www.amazon.com/Good-Eat-Riddles-Food-Culture/dp/1577660153/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&amp;ie=UTF8&amp;qid=1336481264&amp;sr=1-1”&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&lt;I&gt;Good to Eat&lt;/I&gt;&lt;/A&gt; Marvin Harris makes the argument that it occurs only in places where there is a shortage of animal foods.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have to start by saying that one of the rules for the particular contest was that we were not allowed to use arguments around consuming pastured rather than factory farmed meat. This made for an interesting intellectual exercise, but in my opinion, left out the best argument. Eating pastured meat (which I do) negates Middleton’s argument about number of deaths because only one cow is killed. But his argument has other problems. He is assuming that only calorie count matters to human health. If that were true, we could all live on sugar. </p>
<p>My other issue with the contest was that to say that an ethical argument is needed for eating meat assumes that we have a choice about eating animal products. While human bodies are all different, there are some realities that we do not escape, in this context, the reality is that there are nutrients that our bodies do not manufacture that we cannot get from plants. While some humans can survive for longer without animal products, eventually there are going to be problems. </p>
<p>I agree completely that we should minimize harm. This is why I advocate for pastured meat, which when properly done has the benefit of sequestering carbon, reducing flooding, and building healthy soils. This allows livestock to live and breed the way they evolved, and places us (humans) firmly within the cycle of Nature. Let me be clear, I am against factory farming, both for its cruelty to animals, and because it causes damage to human health. </p>
<p>How do you feel about other animals terminating animal’s lives prematurely? As a fact of nature, it is far from gentle or compassionate. Nothing <i>wants</i> to die. A species that lacks a strong survival drive would, by definition, fail to have a continued presence on the planet. It would get eaten. The “desire to live” is not in itself a good argument.</p>
<p>No, I would not defend cannibalism as being part of nature’s cycle. Generally, species that eat their own would run into the same problem as one that lacked a survival drive. But cannibalism is relatively rare. In his book <a HREF="//www.amazon.com/Good-Eat-Riddles-Food-Culture/dp/1577660153/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&amp;ie=UTF8&amp;qid=1336481264&amp;sr=1-1”" rel="nofollow"><i>Good to Eat</i></a> Marvin Harris makes the argument that it occurs only in places where there is a shortage of animal foods.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Eating Ethics by Mijnheer</title>
		<link>http://selinarifkin.wordpress.com/2012/05/03/eating-ethics/#comment-82</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mijnheer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 May 2012 02:23:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selinarifkin.wordpress.com/?p=208#comment-82</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m sure you would not defend cannibalism by using your &quot;denial of death&quot; and &quot;Nature&#039;s cycles&quot; argument. This shows that something is missing from the ethical equation here, namely, consideration of victim&#039;s point of view. It is, of course, awfully convenient for us humans that we get to terminate the lives of animals prematurely, and they seldom terminate our lives prematurely. It is true that none of us can avoid causing some harm to others, but shouldn&#039;t we try to minimize the harm we do?

As for plants, there is no scientific evidence that they are sentient (consciously aware or able to experience pain or suffering), though they are amazingly sensitive to their environments. But if plants were shown to be sentient, that would make the case for vegetarianism all the stronger, since a meat diet requires far more in the way of plant input than a vegetarian diet. (Animals have to eat plants or eat other animals that eat plants.)

Here&#039;s an interesting piece on the &quot;Number of Animals Killed to Produce One Million Calories in Eight Food Categories&quot;: http://www.animalvisuals.org/projects/data/1mc/]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m sure you would not defend cannibalism by using your &#8220;denial of death&#8221; and &#8220;Nature&#8217;s cycles&#8221; argument. This shows that something is missing from the ethical equation here, namely, consideration of victim&#8217;s point of view. It is, of course, awfully convenient for us humans that we get to terminate the lives of animals prematurely, and they seldom terminate our lives prematurely. It is true that none of us can avoid causing some harm to others, but shouldn&#8217;t we try to minimize the harm we do?</p>
<p>As for plants, there is no scientific evidence that they are sentient (consciously aware or able to experience pain or suffering), though they are amazingly sensitive to their environments. But if plants were shown to be sentient, that would make the case for vegetarianism all the stronger, since a meat diet requires far more in the way of plant input than a vegetarian diet. (Animals have to eat plants or eat other animals that eat plants.)</p>
<p>Here&#8217;s an interesting piece on the &#8220;Number of Animals Killed to Produce One Million Calories in Eight Food Categories&#8221;: <a href="http://www.animalvisuals.org/projects/data/1mc/" rel="nofollow">http://www.animalvisuals.org/projects/data/1mc/</a></p>
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		<title>Comment on Nature on a Pedestal by Jim</title>
		<link>http://selinarifkin.wordpress.com/2012/04/02/nature-on-a-pedestal/#comment-79</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jim]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Apr 2012 03:25:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selinarifkin.wordpress.com/?p=192#comment-79</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;d like to explore why guilt motivates so much?  Is it expectations that we have of ourselves that we somehow know we have not lived up to and is thus self-imposed?  Or is it the history of religious training that we have all experienced at an impressionable time in our lives?  Nice work and good luck fighting for justice against the politics of &quot;right&quot;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d like to explore why guilt motivates so much?  Is it expectations that we have of ourselves that we somehow know we have not lived up to and is thus self-imposed?  Or is it the history of religious training that we have all experienced at an impressionable time in our lives?  Nice work and good luck fighting for justice against the politics of &#8220;right&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Advancing, Not Retreating by selinarif</title>
		<link>http://selinarifkin.wordpress.com/2012/03/05/advancing-not-retreating/#comment-75</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[selinarif]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Apr 2012 01:36:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selinarifkin.wordpress.com/?p=176#comment-75</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Since you asked, I had to go look it up. That quote is from Tim McIlrath, vegetarian, PETA promoting, punk rocker.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Since you asked, I had to go look it up. That quote is from Tim McIlrath, vegetarian, PETA promoting, punk rocker.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Advancing, Not Retreating by katsmama</title>
		<link>http://selinarifkin.wordpress.com/2012/03/05/advancing-not-retreating/#comment-74</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[katsmama]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Apr 2012 19:35:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selinarifkin.wordpress.com/?p=176#comment-74</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[wow- I have been thinking a lot about that&quot;if you aren&#039;t angry&quot; quote. I wonder who it is that is trying to make us angry by paying attention, and what they think that anger will accomplish.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>wow- I have been thinking a lot about that&#8221;if you aren&#8217;t angry&#8221; quote. I wonder who it is that is trying to make us angry by paying attention, and what they think that anger will accomplish.</p>
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